I am not really sure about the validity of the evolutionary point Chet has introduced to suggest early humans evolved in the northern hemisphere. Most of the findings of early humans are in Kenya and Tanzania. Tanzania is south of the equator while the equator runs right through the middle of Kenya. It would probably more accurate to say early humans evolved close to the equator than to heavily emphasize a northern hemisphere vs southern hemisphere origin.
Equally, while Aboriginal Australians may only have been in the Continent , years exactly the same point could be made regarding the occupation of Europe and SW Asia by modern humans.
One point that is relevant I think is that on a planetary level is that That includes Antartica. Of course on the equator there are no distinct seasons as in the Northern hemisphere. However, as Nick Dagan Best explained the Sun on a planetary level is moving more slowly in tropical Leo and faster in tropical Aquarius regardless of your location.
Similarly, we see a shift in gear in solar speed at the equinoxes.
How can I calculate Sidereal position on this site?
So in regards rulerships we dont need to resort to seasonal considerations. These can be explained due to planetary speed. I would be interested to hear a debate regarding the use of certain house systems, particularly as the most commonly used systems completely fails at increasing latitudes. Alcabitus seems to overcome this issue but is rarely used? Keepin is referring to implicate order the process level and the nature of reality. As above, so below. Is it not possible that the reason western astrology works any where in the world regardless of an individuals DNA , is that the easy correlation to the manifest seasonal expression was just one expression of something much more profound and universal?
This way, the system works whether cherry blossoms are blooming in April or not. What would happen if we used a different language to describe this system, one that did not take away from the original meaning of the houses or the signs and rulersips but was not so insistent on crocus popping through the snow in March and leaves dying in November? It seems that perhaps we are evolving beyond the limited analogy to the seasons regardless of how counter intuitive that seems in some parts of the world, and are now forced to realize a more profound implication — to adjust our point of manifest reference relected in our language.
Sidereal and tropical astrology
We do not live in that ancient context — but we can take what works from the past and get a bigger perspective. We are evolving! The fact remains that astrology works, we all know this; Australians know this, Los Angeles know this — I would say that is pudding wherein lies the proof. I agree Mike Wackford does a good job in making a case for Placidus at high latitudes.
But at such an extreme polar latitude its not just a particular house system that fails. Is horoscopic astrology as we understand it that cannot cope with an MC under the earth and signs that never rise at all. The real trick is application. Ed , I think the astrological objections to a particular house systems depend very much on the astrologer. For the more pragmatic amongst us the objection can be as simple as that a particular system makes delineation unrealistic.
For example, I live at a latitude of 55N and tens of millions of people live further north than that.
Yet even at my latitude Campanus house cusps become folded in on each other to such an extent you cannot work with them. But I fully accept that is largely a matter of taste on my part. You can certainly argue Placidus is accurately reflecting the changes to ascensional rising times of the tropical signs as you travel north. I suppose my question is whether our house size should be about ascensional rising times in the first place? I think there are good arguments on both sides. Also the time based systems reflect an ancient attitude focused on timing the passage of constellations that goes back to the Egyptian decans.
Placidus also exactly matches the planetary hours. In contrast though you can argue a house, like a sign should reflect the 30 degree movement of the Sun and planets along the ecliptic. I doubt any experienced astrologer would seek to deny the power and importance of the MC in a chart so I find a quadrant system like Porphyry useful to assess how effective a planet might be. I like to compare this issue to aspects. Most astrologers only use conventional aspects by degrees along the ecliptic.
Very few use mundane or in mundo aspects that reflect where the planets really are in relation to the earth. Yet that can be a very useful approach too. No argument, Mark. I tend to look at house issues, at least for timing and strength, only using mundo positions. For topical applications, yeah I play with whole sign houses.
Thanks for the thoughtful commentary! Also, there are a limited number of houses systems discussed, and Alcabitus is not one of them. However, your discussion with Mark raises some interesting points which I am seeking to understand. Chris, is this discussion of house systems off topic? In principle, mundo house positions would be determined using standard Placidus methods unless they do not rise or set, at which point his 6-part division of the declination circle in which they are moving would be used to determine position.
The default for that format is Placidus, but I think you can also select other systems including Alcabitus. Maybe we should take our houses discussion over to the podcast Chris recently did on house systems. Chris forgot to raise that topic with Deborah Houlding in their discussion on the history of house systems so I guess its a useful addition. But then again that was a discussion mostly about the historical evidence over practical delineation. I know two traditional astrologers in Sweden and they both use Alcabitius semi-arc.
The fundamental differences lie in the way these projections are related to the ecliptic, by use of hour circles Placidus , vertical circles Alcabitius , or projection of the Ascendant Koch.
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One is confined to their location database, and initially I could not enter any Greenland location without the site generating a chart for Greenland Station, NH in the USA. The resultant chart displayed uses Porphyry with houses, but when I forced the use of Placidus in the Extended Chart Selection options, the chart had no houses at all. Starfisher based on Astrolog seems to produce a more profound effect with the MC using Nordgronland but never drops below the horizon.
Mark, thanks for an excellent simple explanation of the fundamental differences in the 3 mentioned house systems. HI Kenneth, My bad. Yes, programmers will use different limits and so on. For instance, when I was programming my app that uses a Placidus like formulation, the formula given in the reference blows up due to an intermediate calculation of a trig function going out of range. By substituting a mathematically equivalent formula, the effect is avoided. So, there can be a lot of different reasons for different approaches. In my opinion, most of the differences seem to be due to differing opinions of how it ought to be done.
For instance, Placidus, Topocentric and Svarogich are three different mathematical and geometric variants of Placidus. Astrodienst has chosen the latter out of agnosticism. For Topocentric, Polich and Page performed some unfounded mathematical trickery. Svarogich maintained the same formulation as for normal points on the sphere, but points out that there are sometimes three solutions to the formula for mundane positions, and one needs to look at them to decide which makes sense in a given situation.
Hi Ed; I guess one has to be really on top of the game here and given the variation with different house implementations, the question of which house system to use becomes, to some extent, even more complicated. Because I was born and lived half my life in England, Placidus and Koch made no sense, and until I discovered Alcabitus, I relied on equal house charts!
As you say, this is very interesting, and thanks to you and Mark for enlightening me further. And thanks for the additional info on the case you looked at. I actually contributed the font and interpretive texts for this [free] program, which the latter needs to be activated through the settings.
True Sidereal Birth Chart Calculator - Mastering the Zodiac
Another great show well done Chris. It would have been interesting to have had Ken Bowser on the show for the Western Sidereal perspective an opportunity lost I think? There is no reason one cannot use the Tropical Zodiac within the framework of Jyotish. We know have the technology to use the real Visual constellations as the backdrop for a more accurate astrology based on the 13 sign constellations. Sidereal AStrology should never be termed as Vedic Astrology.
Sidereal Astrology developed in ancient Iraq.
True Sidereal Astrology ~ Neptune Retrograde, June 21st – 23rd 12222
Vedic astrology is a wrong concept altogether and Indian astrology is right word. Indian Astrology never used the zodiac but the constellation nakshatras and other concepts. It is a different astrology altogether like Chinese, Maya, Egyptian and Celtic. Somewhere in 4th Century, some Indian astrologers started using the zodiac. Since, the influence was Greek, I think the first Indian zodiac astrologers were using Tropical. Ancient Indians hardly remembered birthdates. So, zodiac was not at all popular. Even, nakshatra constellation was only a literary work and not put into use.
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Recently last 50 years , the zodiac has made an impression in India. Even, when I was young, astrology meant palm reading.
Since, Nakshatra astrology became popular in last 90 years, the sidereal calculation was also applied to zodiac. Many astrologers in India use the word Vedic astrology only to play the emotional game with other Indians.